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D&D Retro-Clones 
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Post D&D Retro-Clones
I'm not really into D&D anymore, but sometimes I think I'd like to go back and play a game of Basic D&D again.

Of course, nowadays Basic is out of print (is WOTC bringing that one back too?), but there are a multitude of retro-clones, most of which I know nothing about.

So tell me about the D&D retro-clones: Which edition does each one emulate? What are the strengths/weaknesses of the various clones?

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Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:04 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
The two best, IMHO, are Dark Dungeons and Swords and Wizardry.

Swords and Wizardry is a cleaned up OD&D. Initiative makes sense, attack bonuses and armour class ascend, and saving throws are unified, all of which work extremely well in actual play. The "core" rules are OD&D w/o the supplements, while the "complete" rules are OD&D with the supplements. I play the complete version and am very happy with it. I chose it because it's got just enough rules to not leave new players hanging, while allowing me to focus primarily on describing the imagined reality rather than figuring out how the rules can realise that.

Dark Dungeons is RC D&D. It also has guns. Were I not playing S&W, I'd probably by trying out RC. It might be a bit overwhelming for people totally new to roleplaying, but it's got material covering the full course from 1st level mung to Immortal.

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Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:04 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
Pseudoephedrine wrote:
Swords and Wizardry is a cleaned up OD&D. Initiative makes sense, attack bonuses and armour class ascend, and saving throws are unified,


Obviously dumbed down for WoW babbies. Why are you trying to destroy the hobby?

Labyrinth Lord seems to be a popular choice around here, but I honestly don't know enough to differentiate them, they all look the same to me.


Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:51 am
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
JDCorley wrote:
Labyrinth Lord seems to be a popular choice around here, but I honestly don't know enough to differentiate them, they all look the same to me.


I feel the same way about most of the retro-clones. I like the ones that aren't so "cloney." I guess I should say I like OSR games better than retro-clone games, if that makes sense. Is Weird West, for instance, a retro-clone? or Donjon?


Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:25 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
doomfistmonk wrote:
I like the ones that aren't so "cloney."
Which ones are those?

doomfistmonk wrote:
I guess I should say I like OSR games better than retro-clone games.
Well, I think there's a few pages left in this thread before it reaches its limit, so I'd say there's room to talk about both. In my mind, I was lumping them together anyway, since the OS in OSR always seems to mean D&D anyway. :D

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Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:34 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
Yeah. That's what I was getting at. All the clones of 0e seem the same, roughly. All the clones of 1e seem the same. Etc. There's an obvious reason for that. I like the ones that take a step away from the original, taking inspiration from them but not just "rearranging" or "cleaning up" the text, as it were. Lamentations of the Flame Princess, I suppose, is a good example of OSR where the OS isn't so obviously D&D.


Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:11 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
Lets not forget DCC...

heh.

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Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:12 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
By coincidence, a friend of mine sent me an e-mail today and had something to say about the Adventurer Conqueor King System.

Quote:
ACKS is a simulacrum (versus a retroclone) of the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert DnD basic rules. So, you have things like Elves and dwarves as a class, the max level is 14, and other stuff like that. However, it's not a retroclone (by which I mean it's not purely trying to recreate the old system) but rather uses that as a jumping off point. So we have two new race classes (an elven assassin/mage, and a dwarven craft-priest) and a handful of new classes for humans as well (Bards, Assassins, Explorers, and Bladedancers). In the Player's Companion (a book they did a Kickstarter for asking for $4K and they have already raised 15.5K for) there are rules for creating your own classes as well as two new races. Combat also has more depth, allowing you to do maneuvers from disarming opponents to sundering their weapons to grappling them, all in a quick and easy add on to a combat system that already flies compared to later iterations of dnd. And there are the Proficiency rules which are kind of like a mixture of skills and feats from other systems (so if you want to play a fighter who can sneak like a thief, you can do that, or a Wizard who is also a Siege Engineer). And of course it has a huge section on becoming a Conqueror and a King wherein you rule your Domain and spread it until you could possibly rule an empire. They are even working on a Mass Combat system that plugs into it for waging your wars.

While I've been nostalgic about the old days and the beginning of my old campaign (which started in 2nd ed) I've not been able to be pulled back into those systems because, while I can see the appeal, they are just too mechanically simplistic to hold my interest. I guess I need characters that are mechanically different in meaningful ways. This system has hit my sweet spot... Proficiencies allow for special abilities and skills, the combat system has depth well beyond any of the earlier dnd combat systems, and with the class creation system, I can make most archtypes fairly easily.

Oh, and they handle the yo-yo of hit points in a way that is nice and realistic (if you drop below 0, you don't know what happened to your PC until another character examines you... there is a chart that you roll on (with various modifiers based on how quickly they check you, how low your HP are, whether they use magic to heal you, etc) and based on what you roll you could either be dead, or crippled or suffering a serious permanent wound, or just need a few weeks bed rest... but you aren't just going back into the fight. They have a similar chart for Raise Dead... it's so easy to come back...wrong. The designer said they lost more high level PCs to retirement or suicide because they were so broken or monstrous from having been brought back to life they couldn't cope.

So basically, it fixes a lot of my quibbles with DnD, while catering to the things I liked (even some of the things I thought I didn't like anymore but find that I do).


Link: http://www.autarch.co/products/

Sadly, unlike the games Pseudo kindly mentioned, I don't see any free product, even a preview, for download to evaluate it.

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Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:54 pm
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
I don't know a ton about ACK except what I've read in reviews, but it looks interesting. Still, give it a couple months until playtest reviews come out before buying. Everyone right now is aflutter over the shiny new toy. It's only if they're still talking about it a couple months down the line that you know it'll be good.

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Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:01 am
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Post Re: D&D Retro-Clones
I've played ACKS for a few months since getting the proto-PDFs as a Kickstarter backer and have had a few DCC rpg sessions since the Beta rules came out, but the D&D variant that's bringing me the most joy in play is Crypts & Things, (a Swords and Wizardry variant) - just big dumb fun that's modelled on Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, early White Dwarf and the Fiend Folio in the way it's a patchwork of often incongruous but cool/fun ideas.

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Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:44 pm
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