Hmm, David has been talking with me about the why of creating Game Balista. First, the what:
From what you and others have suggested I have come up with this:

1. I would like a place for open discussion of RPGs. All RPGs. This could be problematic since sites that are not focused tend to have a bit of harder time of it. Too hard? I cannot say.

2. I would like a place where designers, gamers, GMs can all get together to build games, characters and campaigns. A workshop without the indie focus of the Forge.

3. I am tired of the drama. You have high moderated sites that seem to breed drama. You have low moderated site that are driven by people who seem to crave drama. I would like to see a low moderation site that does not encourage drama.

So, is that enough? Do we have an idea that could offer something different for gamers?

I do not not know at this point but I would be interested in hearing from you.

Thanks.

I think it is enough because I don't see that anywhere else. Honestly, a lot of people are often surprised that there's no such forum when they really explore the web.

There are probably several cool initiatives that can further enhance the experience. For instance, perhaps a little promotion of our userbase's roleplaying blog? Perhaps tracking their feed in one location that is visible here?

All communities also develop their own interesting habits. Examples include "sell me on" threads on RPG.net and various "game challenges" that originated on The Forge. They reflect their community. I have no doubt we will develop such things that will reflect our community.

O.k. Some thoughts.

James is talking about converting d20haven to RPGHaven for this purpose. I think that would be harder than one might think. I look forward to his input.

Site that have come up. RPGLife and RPGBomb. They are these "MySpace" clone kind of things. Would they fill the space we are thinking of? They are pretty general but, to be honest, I just have no interest. I appreciate that that is so subjective to almost be useless.

I have an idea for a cash reward on a "Build your own" sort of effort. It would be small like $25. Possibly get small press involved to sponsor it for add space. Also, I could see smaller events going on for a "Design a weapon" for a game then win a free PDF. I like the sound of that. I think Clash would be on board and even Brett, probably Silver lion.

Thanks. We may be on to something.

In what ways? I'm really curious as to why you think so - other than the obvious "it was started as one thing so to change it to another is difficult."

And Bill, please don't take that with any animosity whatsoever. I'm truly curious. I have you telling me it will be difficult (hey, I already parked TheRPGHaven there! so you can get there either way!); though I haven't even begun to address the udnerlying data or phpBB, that's true.

Then I have BG telling me blogs are the way to go. I like a lot of peoples' blogs and I do want to add a blog roll sticky thread (man, I almost forgot...what a day); what about adding blogs?

Anyway, I've been really stuck given your new effort here and how it's almost exactly where I was considering going...and it's someone I like...and...

I'm like a little girl sometimes...


FWIW, I just could not get into the RPGBomb site. I've still got an account, AFAIK, but i've done essentially nothing with it...


See, now that's stuff I would love to do. I just never seem to have the time...

Guess I should get insomnia

Not really from the technical side as from the promotion side. Pundit (or anyone) bitching about your site only makes it more visible. However, the thing is, right now, how many active posters do you have? You a Gleichman...Let's be generous and through in Serious Paul and Engine...Now, how long has d20 haven been going? Yeah, you could say it was the focus but I think it is more the promotion and the space you fill. Other sites (dragons foot and EnWorld leap to mind) cover what you were doing. What will RPGHaven do? How will you promote it? I has much less to do with if you have an integrated wiki than if you have a plan to promote it and the right focus. In short, you seem to (and this may be a misunderstanding on my part) think in terms of functionality. "I will build it and they will come" but you just cannot out do something like RPGNet.

Let me be clear, I am facing the same problems here and that is one of the big reasons this site may not happen. I definitely will not do it if you are going to lauch a revamp as well.

Now, on a personal note, I do not see RPGHaven being any different then RPGSite. Why? You have some of the same dysfunctional posters starting out, and you seem to believe it will all be different because... You can say what you like about me and Gleichman, you can even believe as he does, that it is all on me, but you must admit that a hell of a lot of people equate Gleichman with pedantic argumentation (and Engine too) at other sites and independent of me entirely. That is a personal valuation by me though, but I do believe it will shade the growth of RPGHaven and make it much more like RPGSite than not.

I am not opposed to this. In fact, i am in favor of having a members roll of blogs. I would even split it up into personal gaming blogs and design blogs. I think it would be a great attraction to either site.

Not at all Jim. I just to not want one site sapping from another. I have been considering this for a while. Consonant Dude pointed out a thread 2 years old where I talk about my search for such a site. So, I hope you do not take my above statements as anything but constructive criticism and honest response to your questions.

This would merely be a case of organizing the effort. No coding needed.

Well, if you plan to move ahead with your efforts let me now here and we can put this on hold to see how you do.

My apologies. I got tired of looking at the database ER diagram on which I'm working - then Dan showed up to tell me he loves me (at the Haven).

And that got me thinking. And before I came back to check for your reply, I found myself reorganizing the Haven. It's done now. I could go back, but it will take a bit longer.

It's still at d20have.com and it's still branded as such. But it's a done deal now - regardless. At least for the foreseeable future it is.

As for the Gleichman thing - it's one of those things. I think that even if you two felt the exact same about something, a fight would arise. He's the same with Engine. I don't put it on anyone; I lay it at the feet of human nature. I can barely hold a conversation with droog and put CavScout, Jackalope, and Seachai on IL. It was something I simply needed to do or I would be doing the same. God help me I was getting close with Abyssal Maw, which I never saw happening. The point being that while I have a special place in my heart for you, I try not to pass too much judgment on others for their decisions on with whom they will battle. On of the weird benefits of knowing you and Mark and Pete (and hopefully meeting others at GenCon) is that I see, more than ever, how it's a different medium and ite requires a completely different approach to communication - far more clarification (this was my theory to Mark after the GaryCon wind-down discussion).

Either way - I'd love it if we did this thing together. You know I admire you for being a magnificently smart bastard who likes to game. So there's nobody I'd rather defer to or partner with...

Honestly, I think either of you guys can make it happen but I agree that if you both try at the same time, it's probably not gonna help.

Where I think the Ballista has an advantage is that it offers a completely fresh start. Fresh mission statement and everything.

No matter how small, there's a community over at d20Haven and they already have certain expectations. Not only that but potential new users will also have expectations based on that existing community.

In the end, it's up to you guys.

I didn't know d20Haven was already restructuring, I thought it would take a while.

Oh no, we'll work it out so there's only one effort. I only ask Hinter if it's on his deal he keep me in the loop. But he's a mench, so I'm not concerned.

I'll be there Saturday, Bill, though probably just to watch. I'll have the kids (going to let my son take a crack at Marks game - I should go take care of that on ENWorld).


Would an explanation over there help? I'm sure it would. I should make it clear it's not just a reactionary thing...

I may not be making myself clear (it happens). There will not be two efforts, period. I am confident it will not work. Also, that is not code for "My way or I throw a tantrum". It means, if after we look over the pluses and minuses, we think one option is better than the other, we do that. Now, James is not bound in any way to this deal so it could well be that we decide the Ballista is the way to go but he goes ahead with RPGHaven anyway. I will merely put Game Ballista on hold and see what develops. If RPGHaven takes off then great, if not we have a fall back. If we decide that RPGHaven is the way to go, I set this domain aside and close the fora. Again, if things don;t work out we can always try again down the road.

So, Let's list the pluses and minuses.
GB Pluses
1. It is a blank slate. We can form it to be what we want. We can invite who we want to help with the initial definition. We have a chance to get initial buy in from a small core community that we can then build on.

2. It is one servers that are paid for. I control them and the connection is paid for by HinterWelt Hosting. We have beefy severs (Quad Xeon dual core 1.8 GhZ on a SAN) with a fraction T3 connection. This is shared with Kobold Quarterly, YGN and HinterWelt none of which peg out the connection. This means we are independent of the community for funding as well as needing to rely on other methods for some time.

3. ?

GB Minuses
1. We are a blank slate. We do nto have a membership. We do not have any buzz or rep. We will need to build from 0.

2. I am currently at the helm. This will alienate some, anger some and generally could affect membership negatively.

3. The sites hardware is entirely under my control. This sets up a weakness should there be a conflict.

4. ?

RPGHaven Pluses
1. It has a small but vocal membership. Some controversy which can be good to spur conversation.

2. It has an admin that is technical and can make changes tot he board without help.

3. It is established. It could well have some resonance with other sites and d20 communities.

4. Its admin is well accepted. Yeah, Jim, you are more welcome on the RPGSite than I by far. Also, generally more agreeable than me.

5. ?

RPGHaven Minuses
1. It has a rep for being a d20 site. This could be offset with an entirely different look, new theme, colors and logo.

2. It has a core membership. This will shade its growth.

3. It has had time to prove itself with a much tighter focus than what it is moving to but has had little growth. What will change?

4. I have had times when I could not access the site. This could just be me but hardware and connection could be a concern.

5. Expense to Jim?

6. ?

What do you think? Are there more? Are these valid?

Thanks.

Hold on guys. Is there some backstory I'm missing here ? I wasn't aware that this was supposed to be an either GB or RPGHaven, type situation. Sorry in advance, if I'm reading this wrong.

Regards,
David R